JamesBrick's Introduction 2014!

[Arthuriel]

And thou the fourth age of middle earth began an era ended. One of the many occurrences during this wonderous age was the sudden appearance of the ruler JamesBrick, who founded several HQs cities dedicated to the development of very specific industries to improve the nation's economy. Sadly he disappeared after a devastating event, which the historians called the "Big Crap of spring 2014". Some theories say, that the king had some anger issues, which lead in combination with numerous revolts due to his revolutionary policies to the end of his short reign. Other theories are based on the notion, that the sewage system of the kingdom was disfunctional due to low maintenance.

Nonetheless the citizens of this land remembered their beloved and glorious leader and raised him to the status of a god. Therefore they built several temples in his name, which tourists can visit for a nominal fee to the present day.

 

 

P.S.: Sorry for that. It was just too tempting.

[MaelstromIslander]

Forever

 

 

forever

 

 

Forever

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs6FgBec-nk

[MisterGryphon]

JamesBrick for President of RRU 2014.

[STUDZ]

Today I finally realized that RRU is pretty much a circlejerk of new members leaving, regulars slowly dying, and only a brave few jump the gap between newbie and regular.

 

The rest just leave because the higher ups are so darn rude. 

 

I've figured that this is likely due to the Magare/Devestater scare a few years ago, and the entire community is now just extremely wary of new members. Then I realized half of the current community won't even know who the heck Magare or Devestater are.

 

Yeah, the new members can do stupid, oft times comical things. They can be immature. They don't know the "culture" (so to speak) of RRU. Sure, there's rules and stuff. But I don't recall there being a section in the Rules thread on "McJobless' Grilling Of The Newbies".

 

Sure, everything was fine until JamesBrick said he's out. There were a couple of things people said which, if this was BZP or Eurobricks, there would be words from the moderators. And then AFTER he left...

 

Real mature, guys. REAL mature.

 

From my understanding, this would be cyberbullying, plain and simple. And yeah, I "thanked" a few of the posts. Then I realised what I was doing (and there's no clear "unthank" button). Yeah, JamesBrick is gone. So this thread (as well as the HQ threads that went sour) should have been shut down from PeabodySam's "crap" post (no offence to him in the least). It derailed from the thread, and (d)evolved into something else.

 

Not really the first time we've done this either. fun, Ben, etc. We've all had our stabs at them. And the mods HAVE done stuff to prevent it from getting WAY out of hand (Cire's TSA jab comes to mind). But this thread is a testament of what other would consider "too far". Last I checked, this was supposed to be a "family friendly" forum site. sure, cussing happens. But we could at least PRETEND to be better and not fight fire with flaming. It's like having little, grammatically-correct kids doing a big circlejerk. 

 

Okay. I'm done playing moderator again. Do what you will, but unless I see some solid proof against what I've said, this is what I believe RRU is right now. I'm open to anyone's criticism, and I won't run away if I don't like it. I've been here too long for that.

[TheDoctor]

Alternatively, some kid made some s***ty topics that no one cared for and we told him we didn't care for them. Kid got pissed and left. The end. Good night.

[Fush]

Alternatively, some kid made some s***ty topics that no one cared for and we told him we didn't care for them. Kid got pissed and left. The end. Good night.

No, that wasn't the end. It SHOULD have been the end, but it kept going. People kept this topic alive when it should have been left alone, and it became something that I think we should all be a little ashamed of.

[MaelstromIslander]

Yeah, the new members can do stupid, oft times comical things. They can be immature. They don't know the "culture" (so to speak) of RRU.

 

I'm feeling a sense of Deja Vu.

 

Today I finally realized that RRU is pretty much a circlejerk of new members leaving, regulars slowly dying, and only a brave few jump the gap between newbie and regular.

 

The rest just leave because the higher ups are so darn rude. 

 

I've figured that this is likely due to the Magare/Devestater scare a few years ago, and the entire community is now just extremely wary of new members. Then I realized half of the current community won't even know who the heck Magare or Devestater are.

 

Yeah, the new members can do stupid, oft times comical things. They can be immature. They don't know the "culture" (so to speak) of RRU. Sure, there's rules and stuff. But I don't recall there being a section in the Rules thread on "McJobless' Grilling Of The Newbies".

 

Sure, everything was fine until JamesBrick said he's out. There were a couple of things people said which, if this was BZP or Eurobricks, there would be words from the moderators. And then AFTER he left...

 

Real mature, guys. REAL mature.

 

From my understanding, this would be cyberbullying, plain and simple. And yeah, I "thanked" a few of the posts. Then I realised what I was doing (and there's no clear "unthank" button). Yeah, JamesBrick is gone. So this thread (as well as the HQ threads that went sour) should have been shut down from PeabodySam's "crap" post (no offence to him in the least). It derailed from the thread, and (d)evolved into something else.

 

Not really the first time we've done this either. fun, Ben, etc. We've all had our stabs at them. And the mods HAVE done stuff to prevent it from getting WAY out of hand (Cire's TSA jab comes to mind). But this thread is a testament of what other would consider "too far". Last I checked, this was supposed to be a "family friendly" forum site. sure, cussing happens. But we could at least PRETEND to be better and not fight fire with flaming. It's like having little, grammatically-correct kids doing a big circlejerk. 

 

Okay. I'm done playing moderator again. Do what you will, but unless I see some solid proof against what I've said, this is what I believe RRU is right now. I'm open to anyone's criticism, and I won't run away if I don't like it. I've been here too long for that.

 

This makes me feel horrible, i know that everyone treated me like a fool when i first joined, now i know how jamesbrick feels... to tell you the truth, after the "Minecraft RRU Server" incident, i suggested to myself to leave RRU forever, but instead i stayed. In an alternate universe, i left, and i was the jamesbrick of this place.

 

Now i know how jamesbrick feels, in the truth all the newbies are treated awfully.

[STUDZ]

Alternatively, some kid made some s***ty topics that no one cared for and we told him we didn't care for them. Kid got pissed and left. The end. Good night.

 

...You forgot the bit where the community decided to turn him into a mock inspiration for a joke.

 

Know what? I'm out. I said my bit. What I have above will be my only retort. if I keep going, then I'll be no better off. I've got work to do today and I don't want this turning into a flame war. Let's just drop it and get on with our lives. I know where this thread will be going if we keep on about this, so I'll get off my high horse.

 

[TheDoctor]

If it wasn't already clear, I don't exactly closely follow what you people do. If anyone here feels that you have lost some integrity. grief counseling will be available after this thread is locked. Until then, I would advise those who feel that there is something wrong with this thread to report it to be locked.

[Cirevam]

If this has become such a problem I'll gladly delete the New Members forum. I don't read ~90% of the topics that are posted here, and when I do read them it's a bunch of us posting extremely wacky things like telling people to keep their pants on and what have you. And there's always McJobless being a D; I've asked him several times to stop it but he never changes because "that's just the way he is." But I don't have the means or the right to change how people act, so we will all have to improve how we conduct ourselves around here.

 

Remember that we are (probably) the only LEGO modding forum in existence right now, and if we're not the only one then we're certainly one of the best, in both the games we cover and general post quality. Act professionally, but don't be elitist. And for the record, I never made an introduction topic when I joined RRU in 2008. I just joined and started participating. Granted, everyone was chill back then since we were busy cracking Rock Raiders.

[Ben24x7]

I'm sorry to butt in but...

 

 

[lol username]

I don't have much time to post before leaving for a day of airplanes and sleep deprivation, so I'll make this quick: I've noticed a general pattern of RRU folks just plainly taking half-amusing jokes/events/happenings and running them into the ground. Legos in Space (stop begging me to do it again) and the circlejerk that is the quotes topic come to mind. Once one member does/likes something suddenly everybody has to do/like it too, without realizing or considering what may have made it amusing in the first place or what was even actually joked about.

Edit - Got a few moments in the hotel lobby, anyway this is what happens when a joke is pushed as usual except it's not only unfunny but dickish as well.

[PeabodySam]

As a victim of years of bullying, I cannot advocate any form of bullying, cyberbullying included.  I do see that this topic went too far, and my "crap" post seems to mark the beginning of that decline.

 

Yes, this topic should have just been left in the dust like the countless other introduction topics of members who don't even last a week.

 

Yes, there is an unfortunate mentality that this forum has towards new members.  Part of the problem is that, on these web forums, most of our interaction boils down to just the plain walls of text with no body language or tone of voice.  That's all we have to work with.  As a result, if you don't yet know the personality of a member, his/her sarcasm-laden yet light-hearted posts can come across as needlessly mean-spirited.

 

What did JamesBrick give us to work with?  Calling jamesster "evil boy" and "crap boy" as (petty and rather pathetic) insults in response to what he perceived as an attack on his topics when it was actually just an honest (if brutal) comment on RRU's perception of LMB-style RPGs.  True, jamesster's response, "You wot mate...?", probably didn't help to ease the situation, but before anything else could be done, JamesBrick insulted jamesster one more time (hypocritically saying "crap") before declaring that he was leaving for good.

 

JamesBrick has, apparently, kept to his word and has not returned since.  There is nothing that we could have done; he left on his own terms.  But before he did so, he had the audacity to lash out at jamesster in what he perceived as counter-cyberbulling but was, in actuality, just plain cyberbulling, since jamesster made no attack on him to provoke such a response.  Granted, it's not like his insults meant anything to jamesster, but I do feel that some of what we did here was not in response to JamesBrick being a new member who left, but one who stirred up an unneeded ruckus and insulted one of our veteran members without listening to reason.  And as shown here, we more-or-less laughed it off.

 

And that's what I tried to do with my "crap" post.  A bit of self-deprecation, accusing jamesster of scaring off new members like we always do, but in a light-hearted joking manner in an attempt to make light of the situation, made more obvious by the Strong Bad quote about crap.  Once again, I did not personally attack JamesBrick, but tried to turn the situation into a joke.  It was the day after the whole ordeal happened, and I just wanted to make a few people laugh about the situation, not at JamesBrick.

 

Should I just have let this topic die?  Yes, I should have.  It may have been better that way.  And yes, we did go too far, especially when we started turning the jokes towards JamesBrick himself and not the situation; that's where the cyberbullying began on our end and made us no better than the one we were mocking.  And we do need to work on our attitude towards new members.

 

But, if I'm honest, based on what little we saw his behavior, I don't think JamesBrick was meant to be a fit for the RRU community.  If not now, then later, he would have flipped out at one of our members over some petty misunderstanding, immaturely insulting them and swearing off RRU forever.

 

You're right, though.  We have to know which lines we cannot cross, and we must not cross them if we want this community to improve.  We must not stoop to this level.  We must be more mature than that.

[lol username]

Posting from the airport lobby - basically everything PeabodySam said. Some things can be laughed at by everybody (if not immediately than later), but laughing at people never flies.

Though I also hold the opinion that many things RRU collectively laughs at aren't funny either. Some apparently find their own "wit" to be so hilarious that they must quote "witty" blocks of text from themselves in their own signatures - which is then seen directly after their post that berates the community for being arrogant. Yes McStudz, I'm looking at you.

Come on people, this is a community, focus on progress and creating stuff. Awkwardly and hypocritically proclaiming yourself and circlejerking doesn't help anybody.

[Antillies]

I feel I need to address you directly, McStudz, because posts like this are counter-productive.  You're criticizing a non-existent phenomenon.

 

Today I finally realized that RRU is pretty much a circlejerk of new members leaving, regulars slowly dying, and only a brave few jump the gap between newbie and regular.

Despite your charged rhetoric, you've more or less accurately described the life cycle of any forum, or site for that matter.  Ignoring your hyperbole, you've correctly identified that people join, participate for a time while the novelty of the site is still fresh, and then either leave because they've become bored, they've found something better, or simply don't have the time to invest in the site anymore.  Or they become more invested and participate regularly.  People change, communities change, so it's only natural that members drift away and new ones join to take their place.  This isn't a good or a bad thing.  It's a simple fact of life on the internet.

 

The rest just leave because the higher ups are so darn rude. 

 I'm sorry?  Unless you're referring to older, more established members, I take exception to the mods being referred to as "rude."  We try exceptionally hard to be welcoming and impartially fair to everyone, old and new. 

 

I've figured that this is likely due to the Magare/Devestater scare a few years ago, and the entire community is now just extremely wary of new members. Then I realized half of the current community won't even know who the heck Magare or Devestater are.

This is your perception and a spurious correlation to boot.  Magare/Devestater and people who have followed them were not disruptive because they were new.  They were disruptive because they were disruptive.  There is always a period of acclamation for any new member and it can sometimes be rough but that does not mean the community as a whole has a prejudice against new members.  If we sampled from the various welcome topics, I would wager the majority of welcomes/reactions would be positive, not negative.  It is wrong for you to assert your own view of how things are perceived as one that fits this site as a whole.

 

Yeah, the new members can do stupid, oft times comical things. They can be immature. They don't know the "culture" (so to speak) of RRU. Sure, there's rules and stuff. But I don't recall there being a section in the Rules thread on "McJobless' Grilling Of The Newbies".

Yes, this is the acclamation period I was referring to.

 

Sure, everything was fine until JamesBrick said he's out. There were a couple of things people said which, if this was BZP or Eurobricks, there would be words from the moderators. And then AFTER he left...

A few things.  First, things were not fine before JamesBrick said he was out.  He randomly and without provocation insulted Jamesster multiple times for things Jamesster did not do.  This outburst was bizare as it was unwarranted and yielded an appropriately bewildered response.  JamesBrick and JamesBrick alone was responsible for the things JamesBrick said.  Any resulting criticism of his words and actions were a direct result of this fact.  Apparently he felt so embarrassed by this and unable to deal with it in a civl manner that he decided to GG out of RRU.  He could have easily apologized and then could have gone along on his merry way, creating fan fiction RP to his heart's content, but he didn't.  He left.  JamesBrick is hardly a victim here.  Perhaps you should refresh your knowledge on >the topic before you dismiss his actions as the reason for his leaving.

 

Second, if you feel we (the mods) did not catch the situation soon enough you could have assisted us by reporting it.  Though this may shock you, we are not omniscient.  If you see something that is questionable for any reason, please report it.  We cannot catch everything and we rely on community to help police RRU.

 

[T]his thread is a testament of what other would consider "too far". Last I checked, this was supposed to be a "family friendly" forum site. sure, cussing happens. But we could at least PRETEND to be better and not fight fire with flaming.

If you sincerely think that this thread is the unequivocal example of "cyberbullying" and what would be considered "too far," you put me at a loss for words.  Admittedly, some of the posts are probably a bit crass and not in the best of taste but none of them are outright offensive.  Most are light-hearted jabs at the strangeness of the whole situation, not against JamesBrick himself.  I would even contend the level of absurdity is far below the standard "oh, keep your pants on" and "have a waffle and a potato" nonsense that usually litters these welcome topics. 

 

But consider this.  Instead of reporting the posts that you considered "cyberbullying" and the poison of RRU, you instead chose to grandstand and rail against the apparent injustice that is this forum.  You chose to take a moral stand against what you feel is a broken system instead of actively trying to help the situation and assist said system.  Perhaps you should look to yourself first before you beat the war drums.

[Fush]

I want to get one more thought in before this thread gets locked, as it's looking as though that might happen.

This seems to have turned into a battle of Studz vs. Everyone Else, and I'm not really 100% on either side. I agree with what Studz was saying, to a point. I think that keeping this thread going was a little rude to the guy. Studz did go a little overboard though. My initial reaction to Studz's post was 'good for him, someone needed to say it' which quickly turned to 'Oh god what have we done?' as, ironically, his plea to stop this thread caused it to blow up into something far worse.

I'm not sure where I fall on who is in right or wrong here, all I know is that this incident should have been little more that a speedbump in RRU's history yet, somehow, we made it into a huge fiasco.

[emily]

I feel as if I should make a contribution here, although I'm not entirely sure why. I'm far from being an active member of this community, and obviously I am in no position to make an argument as to whether there is a problem or how serious it may be if it should exist.

 

I will say that I often feel uncomfortable on this site and primarily visit it only to collect information on old LEGO themes and media as it trickles in. I don't know if I am simply oversensitive, but I have always been cautious with my posting for fear of reprimand by the community, especially early on in my days visiting the site. Now I don't fear that as much, but I still see posts that I know would convey a lot more harm to me (if they were hypothetically directed at me) than I believe the poster intends or realizes. It has made it increasingly difficult for me to visit this site at all, when at this point it's a very stressful exercise.

 

I don't mean to blame or accuse anyone, I genuinely believe that no one is trying to do anything wrong here, and I'm terribly sorry if it comes across that way. Just look at this as an outside voice to take into account when mulling this all over, I guess.

[BobaFett2]

I feel as if I should make a contribution here, although I'm not entirely sure why. I'm far from being an active member of this community, and obviously I am in no position to make an argument as to whether there is a problem or how serious it may be if it should exist.

 

I will say that I often feel uncomfortable on this site and primarily visit it only to collect information on old LEGO themes and media as it trickles in. I don't know if I am simply oversensitive, but I have always been cautious with my posting for fear of reprimand by the community, especially early on in my days visiting the site. Now I don't fear that as much, but I still see posts that I know would convey a lot more harm to me (if they were hypothetically directed at me) than I believe the poster intends or realizes. It has made it increasingly difficult for me to visit this site at all, when at this point it's a very stressful exercise.

 

I don't mean to blame or accuse anyone, I genuinely believe that no one is trying to do anything wrong here, and I'm terribly sorry if it comes across that way. Just look at this as an outside voice to take into account when mulling this all over, I guess.

I feel the same way.

 

I apologize for my minimal contribution to the thing in someone's status comment.

[Antillies]

I have always been cautious with my posting for fear of reprimand by the community.

 

I feel the same way.

Thank you very much for  your honesty.   Can either of you elaborate on why you feel this way though?  We'd like to understand better if we could.

 

Edit: If you'd feel more comfortable doing so via PM, that works too.

[Seaborgium]

 

The rest just leave because the higher ups are so darn rude. 

As a relatively new member, I think your wrong there. Certain long established members and editors have been rude, but the higher ups, that is the moderators, have been very respectable people.

[aidenpons]

LONG RANT AHEAD

EXPECT DELAYS

Yes, there is an unfortunate mentality that this forum has towards new members. Part of the problem is that, on these web forums, most of our interaction boils down to just the plain walls of text with no body language or tone of voice. That's all we have to work with. As a result, if you don't yet know the personality of a member, his/her sarcasm-laden yet light-hearted posts can come across as needlessly mean-spirited.

Some of you know my argument with McJobless in the Block Raiders forum. That was... a while back. I didn't quite know how much McJobless.... disliked newer members; viz. me. I don't blame him, though.

 

I always use the smiley for a reason. Because I came from the LMBs I am generally light-hearted, and often make [horrible] jokes. I know how the internet mangles our thoughts and intentions: McJobless was merely poking at me in the Block Raiders topic. (If you ever read this, then just know I've forgiven you. I). Anyway, about the jokes. I make them because I try to lighten the mood. Often I fail, but hey, I tried.

<gif animation>

[TLM SPOILERS]

Hey, in the last frame you can see part of the wall exploding from Bad Cop

See what I mean about my stupid, horrible jokes?

 

McJobless' Grilling Of The Newbies

And there's always McJobless being a D;

True... Quite true. This comes back to the lack of information. When we see him now ranting at the new members we laugh a little, because we know he doesn't really mean it. But I never learnt this until it was nearly too late. After being wounded by his words, I stayed off RRU for a wee while and stayed off that topic for WEEKS. No-one ever told any of the new members that McJobless doesn't quite mean everything he says to be taken literally.

(I'm not trying to insult McJobless here)

This is my random, unstructured rant for today. I thought I felt like saying this.

[McJobless]

I said I wasn't going to post in the topic, but I think its best I might as well say a few words to clarify my stance on something.

I don't want to appear self-centered or what not, but I think it's pretty clear this entire drama is not related to JamesBrick in the slightest. Instead, McStudz is using this as a way to address a bigger issue; my treatment of newer members on the site. There's no reason my name (and only my name) would have been mentioned multiple times.

I'm not going to give excuses or make promises, because ~4 years in there's no point anymore. Nor will I say anything I've posted before has been 100% justified. It is absolutely true that I've been an absolute d*** many, many times on this site. I feel that it is also true that my *targets* are mostly, if not usually, in the wrong and deserve some form of discipline (regardless of whether mine is just or not).

This is the Internet, where anonymous humans group together, discuss, and people WILL have differing opinions, and in many cases, it can get heated. Personal history and emotion can cloud judgement.

That said, this is also a civilised forum with a team of highly professional, very friendly moderators. If anyone is feeling any bit threatened, they should consult the moderators, and they can let me or whoever know. I'm also quite happy to take complaints like a man through PM or whatever.

As I said, I'm not here to justify my actions or start a fight. I'm simply here to say that there is a known problem, but the solution involves private communication, not trying to keep old topics alive.

[Cyrem]

No-one ever told any of the new members that McJobless doesn't quite mean everything he says to be taken literally.

We really don't need to. Everyone has their own personalities and this is not something you can just flick the switch on. If you're on the internet, you better be prepared to deal with different personalities because there are millions of arguments happening right this second where personality clashes are to blame. There is no one solution to fix this, this is why rules exist. We allow you to talk they way you like provided it's within the rules. But it doesn't just end there because people then have their own interpretations of the rules. This means the moderators have to try and put aside their view of the rules with on the line things, and instead deliberate with other moderators to try and find something that is fair and does not fit the agenda of any group. This is not a quick process.

 

Now for all those taking sides on this matter, you should be well aware that JamesBrick only existed on RRU for but a few hours. Between his declaring he would 'stay forever' and then 'leave forever' in a community he apparently knew little about he managed to 3 almost empty RP topics (For any who aren't aware: RRU is not a Roleplay/FanFic forum, however we allow it because we're nice like that), then proceeded to ask for a new forum dedicated to role-playing.. Within that topic he managed to imagine some sort of insult to his RP topics on LMB calling Jamester 'crap and rubbish'. He then told Jamesster not to say 'crap' for who knows what reason. After which he went into some immature rant repeating the word that he told Jamesster not to say before having his little rage quit.

 

Members then made fun of his complete immaturity and rudeness. Now, if we go back to the saying "treat others the way you wish to be treated" you can say, JamesBrick got back what he sew.  Likewise as that saying, if you don't feel making fun of his immaturity was right, do not involve yourself in it. If you've changed your mind, remove yourself from the situation. But at the end of the day, if you're going to act like a jerk, don't expect to be treated like a person who is not a jerk.

 

This aside, no-one should feel 'scared' to post. If you suffer direct abuse, report the post, and a moderator to deal with it. If you are afraid to post because you think someone will offend your opinion, this is a personal issue, not a collective forum issue. This is the internet, people yell and scream on nearly every page you can find because people cannot accept someone not agreeing with them. Once you've fully accepted this, you'll be able to throw your 2 cents everywhere and not care what people say in reply.... they are words, they won't jump out of the screen and punch you, they're not going to turn up at your doorstep and yell in your face. People get offended and depressed by what people say on the internet because they're trying to find some sort of acceptance or boost their self esteem. People on the internet are NOT the people you should be trying to get approval of or win points with, they owe you nothing and you owe them nothing. Don't get attached to people you do not know, instead direct that energy at your real life friends. Really who give a rats what some guy in some country thinks of your whatever. If your mood is changing from what some person said, it means you've given them that power. I am not saying people can abuse you the way they want and you have to deal with it, no, there are lines. But until one of these lines have been crossed, you're own you own to deal with what other people say to you.

 

This is all I have to say on this matter.

[emily]

This aside, no-one should feel 'scared' to post. If you suffer direct abuse, report the post, and a moderator to deal with it. If you are afraid to post because you think someone will offend your opinion, this is a personal issue, not a collective forum issue. This is the internet, people yell and scream on nearly every page you can find because people cannot accept someone not agreeing with them. Once you've fully accepted this, you'll be able to throw your 2 cents everywhere and not care what people say in reply.... they are words, they won't jump out of the screen and punch you, they're not going to turn up at your doorstep and yell in your face. People get offended and depressed by what people say on the internet because they're trying to find some sort of acceptance or boost their self esteem. People on the internet are NOT the people you should be trying to get approval of or win points with, they owe you nothing and you owe them nothing. Don't get attached to people you do not know, instead direct that energy at your real life friends. Really who give a rats what some guy in some country thinks of your whatever. If your mood is changing from what some person said, it means you've given them that power. I am not saying people can abuse you the way they want and you have to deal with it, no, there are lines. But until one of these lines have been crossed, you're own you own to deal with what other people say to you.

It is not as simple as this for me, but I understand that it is not the community's responsibility to cater to my personal issues and I wouldn't want it to trouble itself through doing so. I felt that there was a general dissent on this issue and wanted to add the perspective of my personal experience for the consideration of everyone posting. Now that you have put in the final word on the matter and made it clear what the aims of the community are, my post can be considered effectively moot, as the discussion is over.