DDI looking for help for Rock Raiders 2 (Rock Raiders inspired title)

[Addictgamer]

  On 6/27/2016 at 7:21 PM, Ayliffe said:

I'm not telling you to pay them now (that'd be a dumb idea, especially since we have no idea whether this thing will be a finished project one day)

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Actually, that is how the industry works, and what a programmer, artist, or musician would expect. It doesn't matter if the product floats or sinks, you pay the devs while you are developing. That's why games have budgets.

 

Granted, there are some exceptions to this (think of the Indie part of the industry -- however, keep in mind that's a whole different beast), but you don't see EA or any major company telling their employees: "Oh, we'll see if you'll get a paycheck four years from now after you've sunk countless hundreds of hours into a project that might never take off."

[Ayliffe]

  On 6/27/2016 at 7:30 PM, Addictgamer said:

Actually, that is how the industry works, and what a programmer, artist, or musician would expect. It doesn't matter if the product floats or sinks, you pay the devs while you are developing. That's why games have budgets.

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Well, by "later" I mean "when this project has an actual budget and isn't just some bloke from DDI stating he wants a game made", because at the moment that's exactly what this is.

[StewartG]

  On 6/27/2016 at 7:21 PM, Ayliffe said:

 

 

Gonna say this as straightforwardly as possible: This entire reply is bad. Throughout the entirety of this post are examples of you trying to claim to be a superior human being because you did some games once (some of which are, simply put, shovelware), and all this comes across as is trying to big yourself up. At one point you complain about the lack of people on here contributing to this project when, y'know, you (and this game) LITERALLY fell off the face of the earth for an entire year. What did you expect us to do, keep working on a seemingly dead project in the hope that you'll suddenly reappear with a finished project?

 

Also, how are you actually gonna be recompensing the people on here who do end up contributing to this project? Because if you're planning to sell this game as a commercial project without paying the people who put work into it on here fairly, then boy you're in for a world of pain. I'm not telling you to pay them now (that'd be a dumb idea, especially since we have no idea whether this thing will be a finished project one day), but if you've got it into your mind somehow that the members of RRU and the internet in general will work for you for nothing, think again.

 

So yeah, I'm pretty much 90% sure that this project is just another piece of shovelware that's only RR-related to try and cash in on the name in the vain hope that we'll blindly buy anything with Rock Raiders slapped on it. Yes this post is really harsh, but please at least try and take all of this in. 

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I am not a superior human being, and nothing I have said implies that,  but I am the developer for Rock Raiders. I was asked and encouraged by RRU to do a sequel. I was told you are all big fans, who are spending time, trying to re-code the game, creating HD graphics, models and animations, and attempting to MOD the title and keep it compatible with modern machines. I was ASKED if we could create a new version with new content and features that this great modding team can use. I can do that, I can create another version however I like, but instead I have opened the doors so YOU can have input, you can get involved in a real live physical project. a project that you supposedly love and want to get involved in. That is the sort of opportunity most gamers would love to have. Real input on a real game.  For me th9is process has been two folded, I loved RR and I want to redo a new version, I love all your input where it is positive, creative, inspiring and more heads are better one, so lots of feedback is going to get us a better project, this is the good side. Then we have the whinners, who for some reason think that they now own me, and have a right to dictate how I spend my time and money and that they who have no experience or capability are suddenly game design experts,  they believe they should have the decision over what goes in the game or doesn't and also to throw out personal insults just because they think its clever rather than realize its petty and insulting. How about when you start paying me then you can dictate to me, until then this is an opportunity for both of us and we should instead treat each other with respect!

 

If I wanted to do a shovel ware game, It would already have been out and made me another million bucks, I would not be spending my time asking fans what they want, and how they want to do it. Throwing ignorant insults out is not productive for any of us. 

 

I want a good game and asking you for you input, getting you involved seemed like a really good idea. This is expensive in time and money for me, it is far quicker and cheaper to go to an experienced artist and say give me 8 texture, and I will have them tomorrow. Instead I am spending far more time and effort discussing often irrelevant and minor details.

 

I have no problem paying for artists and programmers, I would expect to set up agreements for fees or royalties or combinations of both, that is not an issue, but at the moment I am not getting fans with ability coming forward (apart from the few I have already mentioned)  I believe a motivated fan will be far better on this project than someone I employ just for a wage, if you don't want to participate then fine - don't - I am not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do, but please don't go around insulting me and others who do want to create something good.

  On 6/27/2016 at 6:29 PM, Ringtail said:

  On 6/27/2016 at 4:41 PM, StewartG said:

Ringtail, congrats on getting your job

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thanks for the condescension lmao, now I really regret ever trusting you guys.

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I know with typing it is hard to tell emotions, this was serious not condescending. I have been in games since the 8 bit  computers, we built ourselves at home, I love this industry, I have literally given hundred of people jobs in games. Some of the best artists and programmers  got hired without demonstrable ability but hired just for their enthusiasm, I am genuinely pleased for anyone who gets a break an opportunity to live their dream. I don't understand your criticism and hate, I am offering to redo a game you love and asking for your input on doing it! How do I become the bad guy? if I ignored everything you all wanted and said I would understand it, but I am trying to involving you, and taking crap for doing it!

 

[Lair]

  On 6/27/2016 at 8:34 PM, StewartG said:

I know with typing it is hard to tell emotions, this was serious not condescending.

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Then you are confusing me with someone else because I don't have any job remotely like that.

 

edit: also I think everyone would still like to know what the hell happened over the last year.

[lol username]

I think the best thing to do at this point would be to post a rundown of where the project is these days. Given how many and how quickly ideas were being discussed, and then the silence, it's a bit unclear what the project is currently envisioned to be - and given the website went offline and Facebook went inactive, most people assumed it had been abandoned entirely. I think people will be able to give more helpful reactions if they know more about what we're talking about.

[Addictgamer]

  On 6/27/2016 at 8:34 PM, StewartG said:

If I wanted to do a shovel ware game, It would already have been out and made me another million bucks, I would not be spending my time asking fans what they want, and how they want to do it.

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I actually want to see a (at the very least, spiritual) sequel to Rock Raiders succeed.

 

I believe I contacted you some while ago about more details on the programming aspect -- and I did get a response.

Do know I am still interested in contributing to this endeavor. However, my situation remains the same: I am a full time student and I presently work at an Indie game studio. Right now, I don't know how I'd work out my schedule to be able to contribute to this project.

Regardless, I'm still interested in this project: if I'm at all able to, I'd love to get in on it. I might not have been too outspoken about it up until this point in time, because I don't want to make any promises and then have to break them due to my present time constraints.

 

At any rate, please keep us posted. I thought this project had been scrapped due to the recent lack of updates.

[noghiri]

  Quote

I am not a superior human being, and nothing I have said implies that,

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You basically told Lair of Ringtails that his opinion was entirely invalid because he had never made a multi-million dollar game.  You also implied that all of the users of this website are unprofessional at being game developers... which is a little silly since with a couple notable exceptions, we're all just hobbyists who hang out and poke at games.

 

  Quote

...but I am the developer for Rock Raiders. I was asked and encouraged by

RRU to do a sequel. I was told you are all big fans, who are spending time, trying to re-code the game, creating HD graphics, models and animations, and attempting to MOD the title and keep it compatible with modern machines. I was ASKED if we could create a new version with new content and features that this great modding team can use.

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I do not deny that this would be some Seriously Cool Stuff if it should ever happen.

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I can do that, I can create another version however I like, but instead I have opened the doors so YOU can have input, you can get involved in a real live physical project. a project that you supposedly love and want to get involved in. That is the sort of opportunity most gamers would love to have. Real input on a real game.  For me th9is process has been two folded, I loved

RR and I want to redo a new version, I love all your input where it is positive, creative, inspiring and more heads are better one, so lots of feedback is going to get us a better project, this is the good side

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And a lot of our feedback boils down to, the plan as we knew it was flawed, the models and stuff were of questionable provenance, and some of us even tried to suggest ways to fix it.  You asked for input, and I remember many users giving it.

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Then we have the whinners, who for some reason think that they now own me, and have a right to dictate how I spend my time and money and that they who have no experience or capability are suddenly game design experts,  they believe they should have the decision over what goes in the game or doesn't and also to throw out personal insults just because they think its clever rather than realize its petty and insulting.

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Whining? I see a fanbase alienated by combative and unreliable contact with a developer that has disappeared for months to years at a time and gets upset at someone for not magically knowing about something that we were never told about.  Of course people will feel unhappy, and voice this! It's only natural for humans to do this.  I see nowhere where it is stated that you must be forced to do something, but I do see quite a bit of places where feedback you asked for was given... and it was more negative than you expected.

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How about when you start paying me then you can dictate to me, until then this is an opportunity for both of us and we should instead treat each other with respect!

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You were the first to stop treating people with respect, by acting extremely condescendingly towards a couple of members.  Thus, people lost respect for you.  Respect must be earned, and you may find you will need to earn some respect back.

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If I wanted to do a shovel ware game, It would already have been out and made me another million bucks, I would not be spending my time asking fans what they want, and how they want to do it. Throwing ignorant insults out is not productive for any of us. 

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Ninjabread Man moved approximately 0.08 of a million USD.

 

That's 80,000 USD.

 

Worldwide.

 

It's also the very definition of Shovelware.

 

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I want a good game and asking you for you input, getting you involved seemed like a really good idea. This is expensive in time and money for me, it is far quicker and cheaper to go to an experienced artist and say give me 8 texture, and I will have them tomorrow. Instead I am spending far more time and effort discussing often irrelevant and minor details.

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As a QA tester in an international game development team, I've had some experience watching game developers working with texture artists.  From first request to final texture, it took several weeks and several rounds of tweaking and testing in-engine.  In addition, the textures were paid for.  You never mentioned whether any of us would be paid for our work.  If we wouldn't be, no amount of favors or "exposure" would really properly remunerate us for professional work for a presumably professional, paid product.

 

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I have no problem paying for artists and programmers, I would expect to set up agreements for fees or royalties or combinations of both, that is not an issue, but at the moment I am not getting fans with ability coming forward (apart from the few I have already mentioned)  I believe a motivated fan will be far better on this project than someone I employ just for a wage, if you don't want to participate then fine - don't - I am not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do, but please don't go around insulting me and others who do want to create something good.

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So, what I'm getting from this is... you're fine with paying us, but you don't want to, thinking that just being fans would sufficiently motivate us.  This is not how people work.

[StewartG]

  On 6/27/2016 at 8:56 PM, Addictgamer said:

I believe I contacted you some while ago about more details on the programming aspect -- and I did get a response.

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Please note, AddictGamer contacted me, I responded, and I have not exploited him to do work for nothing.

 

I have no idea where these posts about exploiting programmers to work for nothing to write a whole game for free are coming from!!!!! for a start it is a ludicrous Idea, a project with part time inexperienced unpaid programmers will never get finished, it would waste my time and theirs, and no-one would profit. Please guys lets get back to reality and discuss getting a great version of Rock Raiders redone, stop throwing out make up insults and lies.

[Shadowblaze]

  On 6/27/2016 at 9:08 PM, StewartG said:

Please note, AddictGamer contacted me, I responded, and I have not exploited him to do work for nothing.

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Uhh, where is this coming from? I don't think he said anything like that.

 

  On 6/27/2016 at 9:08 PM, StewartG said:

part time inexperienced unpaid programmers

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Well, some on RRU are professional programmers if I recall correctly.

 

Just pointing a couple of things out. Without bad intentions.

[Addictgamer]

  On 6/27/2016 at 9:05 PM, noghiri said:

So, what I'm getting from this is... you're fine with paying us, but you don't want to, thinking that just being fans would sufficiently motivate us.  This is not how people work.

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That's not at all what I understood from that. I have to agree with Stewart here. He expressed a good hiring factor in the gaming industry: motivation and enthusiasm are more valuable than experience in the long-run.

Experience can and is acquired, but enthusiasm and a genuine love for the project can't be bought. Sure, you do need experienced developers, but it's not uncommon for big studios (I'm looking at EA, for example) to hire part-time developers and interns from the fanbase. Otherwise, college graduates would have 0 chance at getting a job.

[StewartG]

  On 6/27/2016 at 9:05 PM, noghiri said:

You were the first to stop treating people with respect, by acting extremely condescendingly towards a couple of members.  Thus, people lost respect for you.  Respect must be earned, and you may find you will need to earn some respect back.

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  On 6/27/2016 at 9:05 PM, noghiri said:

Ninjabread Man moved approximately 0.08 of a million USD.

 

That's 80,000 USD.

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Firstly I seriously congratulated him on getting a job in the industry. You then say I need to have respect, but immediately follow this with disrespect, by misquoting a totally  unrelated reference to another one of our titles, by a different team, at a different time, for a different project, with a different budget, aimed at a different market, along with made up, inaccurate figures. Do you not think that is disrespectful! How about we just focus on the project at hand, the  RR Project

[noghiri]

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/7254/ninjabread-man/

Made up? I have sources.

[Addictgamer]

  On 6/27/2016 at 9:29 PM, noghiri said:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/7254/ninjabread-man/

Made up? I have sources.

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Huh. Is that 80,000 USD or 80,000 units?

[Lair]

  On 6/27/2016 at 9:27 PM, StewartG said:

Firstly I seriously congratulated him on getting a job in the industry.

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why do you keep saying i have a job

[mumboking]

Maybe he confused you with @Alcom Isst?

 

[StewartG]

  On 6/27/2016 at 9:29 PM, noghiri said:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/7254/ninjabread-man/

Made up? I have sources.

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I will give one reply, because you are wrong, and then no more. This is meant to be a discussion on Rock Raiders.

 

I have never heard of VGchart, so I don't know where they get their data from. The only reliable sales data is from till receipts, but only 40% of the USA retail sales are linked to this system so it is never an accurate figure, they quote 67,000 for USA. Notable sales missing are Walmart, who as this was a low cost budget title (never an expected million dollar seller) this is where it actually sold most units, 160,000 were sold in the USA- the VG page has no figures for the rest of the world, I however order the unit, because every title has to be ordered through Nintendo so I know the exact figures. We sold it to 26 countries, total global sales for NJ were over 350,000 units, so at $20 a title, worth $7 million at retail. Yes it was a quick fast game, it was mean to be inexpensive and affordable, quick play multiuser family title, and it exactly met its target. It was the lowest priced title in the market, no one expects to get EA quality for a lowest priced budget title. Some games you design to be highest quality and a high retail price, some are fast turnaround and low cost, I have published over 200 titles, I have done all types, levels and markets on 13 different hardware platforms. If you want another ninjabread man that cost $100k and made $7mil I would do it again today. After Ninjabreadman I also developed and published My personal golf trainer it cost $3 million and it retailed at $199 per Wii game. if you want a good Rock Raiders II for $2-$3million then I can do that too!   Shall we get back onto the topic! 

[noghiri]

  On 6/27/2016 at 9:36 PM, Addictgamer said:

Huh. Is that 80,000 USD or 80,000 units?

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My bad, units, not USD.  If it were to make 1 million USD, it would have to be sold at 12.5 USD a copy.  Google sez it's at 9 USD right now, so it's actually possible it did make a full million.

 

It also got some of the worst reviews of any Wii game, so there's that.

[Addictgamer]

  On 6/27/2016 at 10:05 PM, StewartG said:

if you want a good Rock Raiders II for $2-$3million then I can do that too!   Shall we get back onto the topic! 

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Speaking of getting back on topic, what's the state of the project? Any new developments, news?

We haven't heard anything in a good while.

[StewartG]

There is no update, I responded today because I suddenly got 4 RRU posts in my email, I was hoping there was a resurgence of interest.  No-one has been working on RRU, I did get two old RR programmers signed up but three other members we wanted were not available at the time. As a company we have been developing a financial services site for the last 18 months (not nearly as much fun- but it pays well). This is due for completion by August when we need to decide what project to do next.

 

[Addictgamer]

  On 6/27/2016 at 10:17 PM, StewartG said:

I did get two old RR programmers signed up

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Oooh.

I'm looking forward to any further developments -- I'm going to mark August on my calendar.

[dead_name]

[A Stick]

What is it programmed in?

 

[lol username]

  On 6/27/2016 at 11:36 PM, A Stick said:

What is it programmed in?

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imagination

[Cyrem]

  On 6/27/2016 at 11:36 PM, A Stick said:

What is it programmed in?

 

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I could be wrong, but most likely C++ in combination to their in-house G.O.D.S engine.

[A Stick]

  On 6/27/2016 at 11:39 PM, Cyrem said:

I could be wrong, but most likely C++ in combination to their in-house G.O.D.S engine.

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Cool. Who is working on it?